VBUNET - All Discussions

City of Sluts - Scene 5

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:10:14 -0700

City of Sluts - Scene 5

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Black Dicken Black Chicks - Scene 4

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:14:44 -0700

Black Dicken Black Chicks - Scene 4

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Desperate MILFs and Housewives - scene 4

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:48:19 -0700

Desperate MILFs and Housewives - scene 4

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Interracial Sperm Donors - Scene 2

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:35:16 -0700

Interracial Sperm Donors - Scene 2

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City of sluts - Scene 3

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:56:26 -0700

City of sluts - Scene 3

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svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:43:05 -0700

Horny girl fucks very nice - City of sluts

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American Chocolates - Scene 5

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:45:18 -0700

American Chocolates - Scene 5

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svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:32:51 -0700

Nice girls sucking - cum on face

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American Chocolates - Very Hot Girls

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:20:21 -0700

American Chocolates - Very Hot Girls

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Momma Knows Best - Aubrey Addams, Gina Rome

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:27:35 -0700

Momma Knows Best - Aubrey Addams, Gina Rome

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Momma Knows Best - India Summer

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:14:52 -0700

Momma Knows Best - India Summer

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Momma Knows Best - Jaylyn Rose

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:17:54 -0700

Momma Knows Best - Jaylyn Rose

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Momma Knows Best - Claudia Valentine

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:58:53 -0700

Momma Knows Best - Claudia Valentine

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Momma Knows Best - Nicki Hunter

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:45:58 -0700

Momma Knows Best - Nicki Hunter

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Rain Coater's Point of View - Lolly

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:25:53 -0700

Rain Coater's Point of View - Lolly

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Rain Coater's Point of View - Vanessa Rubec

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:07:24 -0700

Rain Coater's Point of View - Vanessa Rubec

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Rain Coater's Point of View #1, Scene 1

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:44:29 -0700

Rain Coater's Point of View #1, Scene 1

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Golden Fingers - Tera Bond, Tiffany Gold

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:27:57 -0700

Golden Fingers - Tera Bond, Tiffany Gold

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Golden Fingers - Tiffany Gold

svascscsctic — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:06:08 -0700

Golden Fingers - Tiffany Gold

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Golden Fingers - Moonlight

svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:23:15 -0700

Golden Fingers - Moonlight

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Golden Fingers - Sidney Blond

svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:53:57 -0700

Golden Fingers - Sidney Blond

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Golden Fingers - Melissa Golden

svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:23:35 -0700

Golden Fingers - Melissa Golden

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Golden Fingers - Sandra James

svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:09:13 -0700

Golden Fingers - Sandra James

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svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:42:02 -0700

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svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:06:50 -0700

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svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:31:06 -0700

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svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:16:11 -0700

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svascscsctic — Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:38:33 -0700

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mail.txt

Vimto — Mon, 05 Mar 2007 07:08:39 -0800

Found at:
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ftp/ucsterminal/mail.txt

1-Oct-98 7:14:07-GMT,3775;000000000001
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From: Geoffrey Waigh
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I was going to send this to offline@unicode.org (the list for offline
unicode discussions,) but assumed from your request for private
correspondence you were not aware of the forum.

Frank da Cruz wrote:
>
> D R A F T # 1
>

> ABSTRACT
>
> A selection of terminal graphics characters is proposed for Unicode [24]
> and ISO 10646 [19] to allow Unicode-based terminal emulation software to
> (a) display glyphs that are found on popular types of terminals but
> currently are not available in Unicode, and (b) interoperate with other
> Unicode applications.

I can see clear merit in handling b), but I'm leary of the code space
consumption that a) is having here. In general, my feeling is that
if 98% emulation does the job in an adequate fashion for
non-perfectionists, then that is the way to go.

[On control character display]

I don't think that the existing C0 control code graphics being
indicated as horizontal and a preference for diagonal glyphs
warrants disunification. I think that is a font variation and
so long as the control code is represented with one of it's
standard names (2 or 3 letters, horizontal or diagonal,) the
information is being properly conveyed and the user can understand
what is going on. However, I think it would be useful to
complete the control code set.

[On Hex code display]

That seems kind of wasteful for a debugging mode. Do the terminals
that produce this output have escape sequences for enabling this
mode, or is it strictly a terminal configuration option? (Of course
by that measure the control character codes come under scrutiny...)

[On math symbols]

I cannot comment on these since our customers had 0 interest in the
technical symbols, and so aside from glancing at the code pages and
realizing they wouldn't map to Unicode very well I didn't work with
them.

[On Line and Blocks]

Again, I didn't have to deal with the terminals that form the bulk
of these codes and cannot comment.

> 9. UNFINISHED BUSINESS
>
> The selection of characters presented in this draft is far from
> comprehensive. Hundreds of other terminals from the past 30+ years are
> likely to have glyphs or entire character sets covered neither here nor
> in Unicode, and these might or might not be important in some application
> somewhere. Readers are invited, therefore, to propose any needed
> additions, bearing in mind that Unicode code space is not unlimited.

And hopefully the compleatists out there will let sleeping dogs lie.
Which is not to say that some other terminals might be worth
supporting, but I suspect that the cost to the rest of the world
in terms of codepoint space for most of them means that doing the
emulation with alternate glyphs or custom fonts is appropriate.

Geoffrey Waigh
gpw@cybersurf.net

1-Oct-98 11:27:35-GMT,3161;000000000001
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From: Kevin Bracey
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

In message <9810010143.AA14122@unicode.org>
Frank da Cruz wrote:

> Sorry for the length of the following; if you're not interested,
> skip it. The intention is to bring likeminded parties out of the woodwork;
> if you are one, please contact me and we can continue the topic offline.
>
> - Frank
>

Very well put together proposal - I like it. A few comments (on the mailing
list, so keeping it short):

>
> Unicode already has a block of Control Pictures at U+2400 through U+2421,
> but (except for "NL" at U+2424) these go horizontally across the character
> cell, rather than diagonally, thus making them difficult to distinguish
> from normal alphanumeric text. A new, parallel block of C0 control
> pictures is needed in which the abbreviations are displayed diagonally.

That's a glyph variation - the Unicode Standard explicitly states that
you can use whatever preferred glyph you like for these. Indeed, IIRC,
ISO 10646-1 has considerably different suggested glyphs for these characters.

> E080 SP Space (like U+2420 but arranged diagonally)
> E081 DEL Delete (Rubout) (2-character name: DT)

These two are glyph variants of U+2420 and U+2421.

> E082 LS1 Locking Shift 1 (ISO name for SO)
> E083 LS0 Locking Shift 0 (ISO name for SI)

Maybe these two could be considered glyph variants of U+240E and u+240F?
Probably not, I suppose.

> Hexadecimal byte values, 2 hex digits each. Like display controls, but for
> all 256 8-bit byte values, showing the byte code in hexadecimal, rather
> than the (context-dependent) name. For hex debugging (in terminal
> emulators, line monitors, protocol analyzers, etc). Should be arranged
> diagonally within the character cell as shown in Figure 5.1:

Fair enough - but who are you to specify diagonality? These are just
characters with the semantic meaning "Graphic representation of octet value
xx".

> E0F0 Reverse Question Mark DEC VTxxx, Wyse, Televideo (1)

I would suggest U+FFFD for this.

--
Kevin Bracey, Senior Software Engineer
Acorn Computers Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 725228
Acorn House, 645 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 725328
Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.acorn.co.uk/

1-Oct-98 14:43:20-GMT,2442;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

> > Unicode already has a block of Control Pictures at U+2400 through U+2421,
> > but (except for "NL" at U+2424) these go horizontally across the character
> > cell, rather than diagonally, thus making them difficult to distinguish
> > from normal alphanumeric text. A new, parallel block of C0 control
> > pictures is needed in which the abbreviations are displayed diagonally.
>
> That's a glyph variation - the Unicode Standard explicitly states that
> you can use whatever preferred glyph you like for these. Indeed, IIRC,
> ISO 10646-1 has considerably different suggested glyphs for these characters.
>
My concern is that the pictures in the Unicode book go horizontally. Although
I do not claim to be an expert on Unicode fonts, I have never seen one that
implemented this block, so I don't actually know how it looks. However, I'd
say that the horizontal arrangement would make it extremely difficult for the
viewer to discern the cell boundaries, as in:

NULSOHSTXETXEOTENQACKBELDELNAKSYNETBCANSUBESCCANACKSSASS3SPAEPACSISCI

And thus, at minumum, the table in the book should be altered to show all
control pictures arranged diagonally, and all future control picture additions
should also be arranged that way.

> > E0F0 Reverse Question Mark DEC VTxxx, Wyse, Televideo (1)
>
> I would suggest U+FFFD for this.
>
U+FFFD means "this character is not in Unicode" (or in this font), which is
not quite the same meaning as "this character is illegal in this context"
on the VT terminals. Anyway, reverse question mark is a regular glyph
character on the Wyse and Televideo models.

- Frank

1-Oct-98 16:24:10-GMT,921;000000000011
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From: nelson@media.mit.edu (Nelson Minar)
To: Frank da Cruz
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
In-Reply-To: <9810010143.AA14122@unicode.org>
References: <9810010143.AA14122@unicode.org>

Wow, that was an impressive proposal.

1-Oct-98 16:59:50-GMT,2868;000000000001
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From: John Cowan
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:48:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Frank da Cruz wrote:

> More useful in a terminal emulator, however, is the ability to display the
> the official abbreviation [1,18], or "name", of the control character in a
> single cell. [...]
>
> Some control characters have two-character abbreviations (such as CR, LF,
> HT, FF), while others are three characters (NUL, SOH, DC1, DLE). Some
> terminals compress three-letter abbreviations to the two-character forms
> shown in Table 4.2. All terminals, however, display the abbreviations
> diagonally in the character cell, as shown in Figure 4.1. [...]
>
> Unicode already has a block of Control Pictures at U+2400 through U+2421,
> but (except for "NL" at U+2424) these go horizontally across the character
> cell, rather than diagonally, thus making them difficult to distinguish from
> normal alphanumeric text. A new, parallel block of C0 control pictures is
> needed in which the abbreviations are displayed diagonally.

This reflects a failure to understand the semantics of the
Control Pictures block, specifically the range U+2400 - U+214F,
which is documented on page 6-84 of the Unicode Standard 2.0.

# [F]or the control code graphics U+2400 -> U+241F only the
# semantic is encoded in the Unicode Standard. This allwos a particular
# application to use the graphic representation it prefers.
# [...] The [code points U+2400 to U+241F] are not associated with
# specific glyphs, but rather are available to encode any
# desired pictorial representation of the given control code.

The horizontal representations printed on page 7-188, therefore,
are not standardized in any way. Diagonal representations would
be entirely equivalent; the distinction is one of font only.

--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)

1-Oct-98 17:15:40-GMT,2779;000000000001
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From: Rick McGowan
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

Frank da Cruz sent a long proposal. It looks like a pretty thorough
analysis, though I've not made it all the way through. One thing leapt out
that I thought I'd mention...

> Unicode already has a block of Control Pictures at U+2400 through U+2421,
> but (except for "NL" at U+2424) these go horizontally across the character
> cell, rather than diagonally, thus making them difficult to distinguish
> from normal alphanumeric text. A new, parallel block of C0 control
> pictures is needed in which the abbreviations are displayed diagonally

I think rather that the current control pictures are a SUGGESTION of the
possible glyphs for particular functions. The glyphs for them even changed
between Unicode 1.0 and 2.0! So I would have to seriously question adding a
parallel set of pictures. Unless there is some need for having multiple,
parallel representations for THE SAME CODE on the SAME TERMINAL, I don't see
any point to adding several glyphic variations. Pick your glyphs and use the
existing control pix for existing controls.

Of course, there are a *lot* of controls, many control sets, and some degree
of overlap, as Frank's proposal points out rather dramatically. I would
suggest that he take up an attempt at serious unification of these things,
and collect all of the wonderful data he's gathered into a "white paper" on
how to use control pictures for what terminals, etc. With mapping tables,
and a list of the minimum required additions to support full cross-mappings.

This proposal contains a lot of data. It would be best to do as much
unification work as possible up-front, rather than relying on UTC and/or WG2
to take it up. The proposal would stand a greater chance of success. If the
committees look at it and say that it needs much work to clarify what can
and cannot be unified, then they're less likely to act quickly. In my
opinion.

And the bibliography is impressive.

Rick

1-Oct-98 17:24:04-GMT,1128;000000000001
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From: Rick McGowan
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:00:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

> I do not claim to be an expert on Unicode fonts, I have never seen one that
> implemented this block, so I don't actually know how it looks.

Frank -- Go out to
http://www.indigo.ie/egt/celtscript/
and look for Everson Mono. There's a PS font that implements these, with
completely different glyphs.

Rick

1-Oct-98 18:29:33-GMT,6717;000000000011
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From: Paul Keinanen
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

Kevin Bracey said most that I was planning to say about this interesting
proposal, but here are some more observations.

Frank da Cruz wrote:

>Table 4.2: C0 Control Pictures
>
> Code Name 2X Code Name 2X
> E000 NUL NU E010 DLE DL
> E001 SOH SH E011 DC1 D1
> E002 STX SX E012 DC2 D2
> E003 ETX EX E013 DC3 D3
> E004 EOT ET E014 DC4 D4
> E005 ENQ EQ E015 NAK NK
> E006 ACK AK E016 SYN SY
> E007 BEL BL E017 ETB EB
> E009 BS BS E018 CAN CN
> E009 HT HT E019 EM EM
> E00A LF LF E01A SUB SU
> E00B VT VT E01B ESC EC
> E00C FF FF E01C FS FS
> E00D CR CR E01D GS GS
> E00E SO SO E01E RS RS
> E00F SI SI E01F US US
>
>There is little to gain by defining separate 2- and 3-character glyphs for
>control characters that have 3-character names; therefore it is suggested
>that the full abbreviation (from the Name column) be used, with the
>characters arranged diagonally within each cell (rather than horizontally as
>in the U+2400 block), and that the 2X column be ignored.

As far as I know, the Unicode standard does not specify the writing
direction or actual representation of these characters. I would think that
the two or three character forms are just variations of the same glyph. To
me, it would make perfectly sense for readability point of view to use e.g.
AK (horisontally, diagonally or vertically spaced) for a very small font and
use ACK for larger fonts with more available pixels.

If all octet values (00 .. FF) are also going to be displayed, there might
be some ambiguity with some of the two letter codes, e.g. FF, D1, D2, D3,
D4, EB and EC, which should be noted in the actual font design.

>C1 Control characters are specified in ISO-6429 and used in the VT220
>family of terminals [5] and the Wyse 370 [26], where they are represented
>in the right half of the "display controls" font as shown in Table 4.3 (DEC
>terminals use the full name, Wyse terminals use the 2X name). As with C0
>controls, the "name" is displayed diagonally within the character cell.
>Unicode presently includes no C1 control pictures.

Looking through various EBCDIC code pages (e.g. IBM278, IBM880) and other
unnumbered sets it appears that these control codes are all also available
in EBCDIC, but of course at different positions (e.g. IND at 0x24). Some
references to these sets are "IBM NLS RM Vol2 SE09-8002-01, March 1990" and
"IBM 3270 Char Set Ref Ch 10, GA27-2837-9, April 1987".

Based on this observation, it is strange that the C0 control pictures are in
the Unicode standard, but not the C1 control pictures.

>Table 4.3: C1 Control Pictures

>Note that three of the C1 control pictures are unassigned (the ones marked
>by "(1)", that would be at U+E020, U+E021, and U+E039 if these were
>assigned). These positions should be left vacant in case names are assigned
>to these characters in a future revision of ISO 6429.

In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as

80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)

99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)

>Table 4.4 shows the names of control characters unique to EBCDIC (that is,
>the ones it does not share with ASCII).

There seems to be different names for the same EBCDIC control characters and
some of these names are equivalent to the ASCII names. Just wondering what
should be done to these control pictures ? Some examples below.

> E082 LS1 Locking Shift 1 (ISO name for SO)
> E083 LS0 Locking Shift 0 (ISO name for SI)
> E084 IS4 ISO Name for FS: Information Separator 4
> E085 IS3 ISO Name for GS: Information Separator 3
> E086 IS2 ISO Name for RS: Information Separator 2
> E087 IS1 ISO Name for US: Information Separator 1

>5. HEX BYTES
>
>Hexadecimal byte values, 2 hex digits each. Like display controls, but for
>all 256 8-bit byte values, showing the byte code in hexadecimal, rather than
>the (context-dependent) name. For hex debugging (in terminal emulators,
>line monitors, protocol analyzers, etc). Should be arranged diagonally
>within the character cell as shown in Figure 5.1:

These would be very nice . Note the possible ambiguity with some two
character control pictures r.g. FF, EB etc. So special precautions should be
taken when designing the fonts.

>8. MISCELLANEOUS SINGLE-CELL GLYPHS

>Notes:
> (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation, where it
> indicates that an invalid code was received, or a parity or other
> error was detected. It also stands for SUB and/or RS in Wyse display
> controls mode, and is the glyph for 0xFF in the Televideo Multinational
> Character Set [23]. And it it is also a glyph in the DG Special
> Graphics Character Set [2].

Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no need
to re-invent it.

>9. UNFINISHED BUSINESS

>No attempt was made to account for the many Viewdata, Videotex, Minitel,
>NAPLPS, or other mosaic graphics character sets. These should be tackled,
>if appropriate, by someone who knows something about them.

And not forgetting the tele-text block characters on European TVs. With the
introduction of TV cards for PCs that also contains a teletext decoder, so
there is a need to display the text and block graphics on PC. As far as I
remember, the block graphic format is more or less the same as Viewdata with
2 columns and 3 rows per character cell, thus requiring 64 glyphs.

All in all a very interesting proposal. By using as much existing characters
from current Unicode standard, i guess there would be a greater likelyhood
of getting thing officially approved.

Paul

1-Oct-98 19:21:23-GMT,4957;000000000001
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 15:20:04 EDT
From: Frank da Cruz
To: unicode@unicode.org
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID:

> As far as I know, the Unicode standard does not specify the writing
> direction or actual representation of [control pictures]. I would think that
> the two or three character forms are just variations of the same glyph.
>
This seems to be the consensus, and the most prominent reaction to the
proposal. Still, if I were a font maker working from the Unicode book, I'd
probably copy the pictures in it, so again, I'd suggest the next edition
show the characters diagonally within the cell, and the accompanying text
(which if I can overlook, so can a font maker point out the importance
of visually preserving the character-cell boundaries by some means. The
diagonal arrangement is used on all terminals I have seen that support
display controls, so this would be the most obvious method.

> If all octet values (00 .. FF) are also going to be displayed, there might
> be some ambiguity with some of the two letter codes, e.g. FF, D1, D2, D3,
> D4, EB and EC, which should be noted in the actual font design.
>
Good point. One path to disambiguation would be to show hex digits A-F in
lower case. Sounds OK?

> >C1 Control characters are specified in ISO-6429 and used in the VT220
> >family of terminals [5] and the Wyse 370 [26], where they are represented
> >in the right half of the "display controls" font as shown in Table 4.3 (DEC
> >terminals use the full name, Wyse terminals use the 2X name). As with C0
> >controls, the "name" is displayed diagonally within the character cell.
> >Unicode presently includes no C1 control pictures.
>
> Looking through various EBCDIC code pages (e.g. IBM278, IBM880) and other
> unnumbered sets it appears that these control codes are all also available
> in EBCDIC, but of course at different positions (e.g. IND at 0x24). Some
> references to these sets are "IBM NLS RM Vol2 SE09-8002-01, March 1990" and
> "IBM 3270 Char Set Ref Ch 10, GA27-2837-9, April 1987".
>
Thanks for pointing this out -- I'll be sure to unify all duplicates in the
next go-round.

> In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as
>
> 80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
> 81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)
> 99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)
>
I suppose that's a good enough source, though I wonder why they are not
named in ISO 6429!

> >Table 4.4 shows the names of control characters unique to EBCDIC (that
> >is, the ones it does not share with ASCII).
>
> There seems to be different names for the same EBCDIC control characters
> and some of these names are equivalent to the ASCII names. Just wondering
> what should be done to these control pictures ? Some examples below.
>
In the spirit of unification, I would venture that if two different control
characters have the same name, only one control picture is needed.

> >Notes:
> > (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation...
>
> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no
> need to re-invent it.
>
But that one is upside down. The one I'm talking about is upright but
flipped on its vertical axis.

Clearly an important component of this proposal, before it reaches its final
stage, is a collection of pictures of the proposed characters. I'll do my
best to scan in the relevant pages from the many terminal manuals, for what
it's worth -- many of them are crude and unclear to begin with, some of them
are even hand-drawn. Others are wedded to dot matrices of specific
dimensions and, in fact, are shown as large tty graphics.

I wonder how one proceeds from such elusive sources to create a definitive
picture of each character, and then to translate this into the style of a
particular font. Oh well, not my problem

> All in all a very interesting proposal. By using as much existing characters
> from current Unicode standard, i guess there would be a greater likelyhood
> of getting thing officially approved.
>
And of course, many characters in many of these sets are indeed well covered
by existing Unicode characters and so never appeared in the proposal in the
first place. I considered fully enumerating each character set and noting
which characters already did and did not have suitable Unicode equivalents,
but that would have made the proposal much too long.

Thanks to you and everyone else for the helpful and supportive comments. I
think the next step will be to run a new draft (updated according to comments
from this list) past the broad constituencies of some of the terminals it
treats, for which there are several well-suited newsgroups.

Thanks again!

- Frank

1-Oct-98 19:58:53-GMT,5362;000000000001
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From: Frank da Cruz
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

> As far as I know, the Unicode standard does not specify the writing
> direction or actual representation of [control pictures]. I would think that
> the two or three character forms are just variations of the same glyph.
>
This seems to be the consensus, and the most prominent reaction to the
proposal. Still, if I were a font maker working from the Unicode book, I'd
probably copy the pictures in it, so again, I'd suggest the next edition
show the characters diagonally within the cell, and the accompanying text
(which if I can overlook, so can a font maker point out the importance
of visually preserving the character-cell boundaries by some means. The
diagonal arrangement is used on all terminals I have seen that support
display controls, so this would be the most obvious method.

> If all octet values (00 .. FF) are also going to be displayed, there might
> be some ambiguity with some of the two letter codes, e.g. FF, D1, D2, D3,
> D4, EB and EC, which should be noted in the actual font design.
>
Good point. One path to disambiguation would be to show hex digits A-F in
lower case. Sounds OK?

> >C1 Control characters are specified in ISO-6429 and used in the VT220
> >family of terminals [5] and the Wyse 370 [26], where they are represented
> >in the right half of the "display controls" font as shown in Table 4.3 (DEC
> >terminals use the full name, Wyse terminals use the 2X name). As with C0
> >controls, the "name" is displayed diagonally within the character cell.
> >Unicode presently includes no C1 control pictures.
>
> Looking through various EBCDIC code pages (e.g. IBM278, IBM880) and other
> unnumbered sets it appears that these control codes are all also available
> in EBCDIC, but of course at different positions (e.g. IND at 0x24). Some
> references to these sets are "IBM NLS RM Vol2 SE09-8002-01, March 1990" and
> "IBM 3270 Char Set Ref Ch 10, GA27-2837-9, April 1987".
>
Thanks for pointing this out -- I'll be sure to unify all duplicates in the
next go-round.

> In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as
>
> 80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
> 81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)
> 99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)
>
I suppose that's a good enough source, though I wonder why they are not
named in ISO 6429!

> >Table 4.4 shows the names of control characters unique to EBCDIC (that
> >is, the ones it does not share with ASCII).
>
> There seems to be different names for the same EBCDIC control characters
> and some of these names are equivalent to the ASCII names. Just wondering
> what should be done to these control pictures ? Some examples below.
>
In the spirit of unification, I would venture that if two different control
characters have the same name, only one control picture is needed.

> >Notes:
> > (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation...
>
> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no
> need to re-invent it.
>
But that one is upside down. The one I'm talking about is upright but
flipped on its vertical axis.

Clearly an important component of this proposal, before it reaches its final
stage, is a collection of pictures of the proposed characters. I'll do my
best to scan in the relevant pages from the many terminal manuals, for what
it's worth -- many of them are crude and unclear to begin with, some of them
are even hand-drawn. Others are wedded to dot matrices of specific
dimensions and, in fact, are shown as large tty graphics.

I wonder how one proceeds from such elusive sources to create a definitive
picture of each character, and then to translate this into the style of a
particular font. Oh well, not my problem

> All in all a very interesting proposal. By using as much existing characters
> from current Unicode standard, i guess there would be a greater likelyhood
> of getting thing officially approved.
>
And of course, many characters in many of these sets are indeed well covered
by existing Unicode characters and so never appeared in the proposal in the
first place. I considered fully enumerating each character set and noting
which characters already did and did not have suitable Unicode equivalents,
but that would have made the proposal much too long.

Thanks to you and everyone else for the helpful and supportive comments. I
think the next step will be to run a new draft (updated according to comments
from this list) past the broad constituencies of some of the terminals it
treats, for which there are several well-suited newsgroups.

Thanks again!

- Frank

1-Oct-98 19:58:53-GMT,1419;000000000001
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From: John Cowan
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Paul Keinanen wrote:

> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no need
> to re-invent it.

No, that is the inverted (head over heels) question mark. What is
being described here is a reversed (left-to-right) question mark.

--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)

1-Oct-98 21:32:59-GMT,2116;000000000001
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From: Rick McGowan
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

> Still, if I were a font maker working from the Unicode book, I'd
> probably copy the pictures in it, so again, I'd suggest the next edition
> show the characters diagonally within the cell, and the accompanying text
> (which if I can overlook, so can a font maker

Yes, yes, but... People should read, Grasshopper. It is that for which we write.

People who do not "R.T.F.M." waste everyone else's time asking questions
that are answered in "T.F.M." The Internet is absolutely RAMPANT with that
behavior and it always has been. (Well, society itself, for that matter, is
full of such behavior, so I shouldn't knock the net...)

It would be a poor, poor font designer indeed who, having NOT Read The
Formidable Manual, tried to implement a font for the control pictures. I
would not pity such a person, only the victims of the resulting "font".

> I wonder how one proceeds from such elusive sources to create a definitive
> picture of each character, and then to translate this into the style of a
> particular font. Oh well, not my problem

Actually, Grasshopper... it *is* your problem. Nobody else is going to do
this for you. I suggest you gird your loins and heave to. This is a chance
for you to make a useful and lasting contribution to History.

Cheerily,
Rick

1-Oct-98 21:53:31-GMT,1581;000000000001
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From: Asmus Freytag
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:40:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

>And thus, at minumum, the table in the book should be altered to show all
>control pictures arranged diagonally, and all future control picture
additions
>should also be arranged that way.

We are looking into this for Unicode 3.0. Although the mail discussion makes
clear that the distinction between characters and glyphs is widely known, it
makes no sense to depart from the established use in the one area the
characters are intended for!

Since the two glyph forms are equivalent (i.e. there's no question of changing
the identity of the characters) such a change is editorial in nature. For
what it's worth, ISO 10646 uses the diagonal forms (although incorrectly in
a roman type face).

A./

1-Oct-98 22:06:05-GMT,1299;000000000001
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From: Asmus Freytag
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

>> >Notes:
>> > (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation...
>>
>> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no
>> need to re-invent it.
>>
>But that one is upside down. The one I'm talking about is upright but
>flipped on its vertical axis.
>

This important character is already on the list of characters to be added
in one the coming amendments in ISO 10646.

A./

1-Oct-98 23:12:25-GMT,1652;000000000001
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From: kenw@sybase.com (Kenneth Whistler)
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Cc: kenw@sybase.com
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal (reverse QMark)

>
> >> >Notes:
> >> > (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation...
> >>
> >> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no
> >> need to re-invent it.
> >>
> >But that one is upside down. The one I'm talking about is upright but
> >flipped on its vertical axis.
> >
>
> This important character is already on the list of characters to be added
> in one the coming amendments in ISO 10646.
>

As Asmus mentioned, this one is already on its way. It is encoded in
Amendment 18 to 10646, which is just entering its last round of ballotting:

U+2426 SYMBOL FOR SUBSTITUTE FORM TWO

with the requisite shape of the reversed question mark.

This character is derived from ISO 2047, also shows up in DIN 66 213,
and in various terminal emulations.

--Ken

2-Oct-98 0:27:41-GMT,1442;000000000001
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From: Markus Kuhn
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

Paul Keinanen wrote on 1998-10-01 17:03 UTC:
> In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as
>
> 80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
> 81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)
>
> 99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)

Are you sure about the source? Last time I looked into
ISO/IEC 8859-1:1986(E), it was certainly free of any control
characters. ISO 8859 defines only graphical characters.
What exactly is your source on this?

Markus

--
Markus G. Kuhn, Security Group, Computer Lab, Cambridge University, UK
email: mkuhn at acm.org, home page:

2-Oct-98 0:48:25-GMT,2800;000000000001
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From: Markus Kuhn
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

Frank da Cruz wrote on 1998-10-01 14:34 UTC:
> My concern is that the pictures in the Unicode book go horizontally.

Not much love went into the U+24XX glyphs used to print Unicode 2.0.
The OCR symbols look quite strange as well.

Unicode is a character set, not a font. Keeping things readable is the
duty of the font designer. Of course most good fonts will have the Control
Pictures with diagonal letters. The ISO 10646-1 standard shows them
all nicely diagonally. It is a good idea for font designers to have
BOTH the Unicode 2.0 and the ISO 10646 standard on their desk, to see a few
glyph variations as the two standards were printed using different fonts.

> Although
> I do not claim to be an expert on Unicode fonts, I have never seen one that
> implemented this block, so I don't actually know how it looks.

One X11 ISO 10646-1 font that implements this block is available from

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/download/ucs-fonts.tar.gz

See the included README file for instructions on how to have a quick
look at it with xfd. I don't claim that the control pictures in there
are extremely beautiful (doing ENQ in a 6x13 matrix is quite
challenging), but I think it is quite readable.

> However, I'd
> say that the horizontal arrangement would make it extremely difficult for the
> viewer to discern the cell boundaries, as in:
>
> NULSOHSTXETXEOTENQACKBELDELNAKSYNETBCANSUBESCCANACKSSASS3SPAEPACSISCI
>
> And thus, at minumum, the table in the book should be altered to show all
> control pictures arranged diagonally, and all future control picture additions
> should also be arranged that way.

I agree that the glyphs used to print the ISO 10646-1 standard are
much better here than those used in the Unicode 2.0 standard for the U+24XX
range.

Markus

--
Markus G. Kuhn, Security Group, Computer Lab, Cambridge University, UK
email: mkuhn at acm.org, home page:

2-Oct-98 5:47:14-GMT,2024;000000000001
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From: Paul Keinanen
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:40:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

At 12:32 1.10.1998 -0700, Frank da Cruz wrote:

>> If all octet values (00 .. FF) are also going to be displayed, there might
>> be some ambiguity with some of the two letter codes, e.g. FF, D1, D2, D3,
>> D4, EB and EC, which should be noted in the actual font design.
>>
>Good point. One path to disambiguation would be to show hex digits A-F in
>lower case. Sounds OK?

I weas also thinking about that, but since the characters are really small
to begin with, trying to make them lower case on a low resolution matrix
would make them even harder to read.

>> >Notes:
>> > (1) The reverse question is essential in VT terminal emulation...
>>
>> Even ISO-Latin1 contains the reverse question mark at 0xBF, so it is no
>> need to re-invent it.
>>
>But that one is upside down. The one I'm talking about is upright but
>flipped on its vertical axis.

Sorry about that, I did not read your text thoroughly enough.

In all those DEC and other systems I have used, the inverted question mark
(nmot the reverse question mark) has been used for (parity etc.) error
indication. I assumed, incorrectly, that you were refering to this usage.

Paul

2-Oct-98 5:53:42-GMT,2125;000000000001
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From: Paul Keinanen
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

At 17:16 1.10.1998 -0700, Markus Kuhn wrote:
>Paul Keinanen wrote on 1998-10-01 17:03 UTC:
>> In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as
>>
>> 80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
>> 81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)
>>
>> 99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)
>
>Are you sure about the source? Last time I looked into
>ISO/IEC 8859-1:1986(E), it was certainly free of any control
>characters. ISO 8859 defines only graphical characters.
>What exactly is your source on this?

So that explains why

ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/ISO8859/8859-1.TXT

list no code points in the C0 and C1 range.

Then I am just wondering why

ftp://dkuug.dk/i18n/charmaps/CP819 (alias Latin1 alias ISO_8859-1:1987) lists

/x80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
/x81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)

/x99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER
INTRODUCER (SGCI)

and ftp://dkuug.dk/i18n/charmaps.646/ISO_8859-1:1987
lists the same code point values for these control characters

/d128
/d129

/d153

So I just wonder, where they at dkuug.dk/i18n have taken these C0 and C1
codes from, unfortunately these tables did not contain any references (as
did most EBCDIC tables).

Paul

2-Oct-98 9:37:48-GMT,1880;000000000001
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From: Michael Everson
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 01:51:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
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Ar 17:16 -0700 1998-10-01, scr�obh Markus Kuhn:
>Paul Keinanen wrote on 1998-10-01 17:03 UTC:
>> In ISO 8859-1 these are listed as
>>
>> 80 PADDING CHARACTER (PAD)
>> 81 HIGH OCTET PRESET (HOP)
>>
>> 99 SINGLE GRAPHIC CHARACTER INTRODUCER (SGCI)
>
>Are you sure about the source? Last time I looked into
>ISO/IEC 8859-1:1986(E), it was certainly free of any control
>characters. ISO 8859 defines only graphical characters.
>What exactly is your source on this?

I am not following the Terminal Graphics Proposal thread in great detail
because I think Elvish more relevant to my work but I would like to say
that I hope lots of hardcopy examples will be forwarded to WG2 so that we
who are not so expert in the field can evaluate it appropriately.

Cf. the Western Musical Symbols or Syriac proposals.

Michael Everson

PS. Yes, I would make TTFs for them if necessary.

2-Oct-98 11:58:41-GMT,1798;000000000001
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From: Kevin Bracey
Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org
To: Unicode List
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 04:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal

In message <9810020026.AA24186@unicode.org>
Markus Kuhn wrote:

>
> Unicode is a character set, not a font. Keeping things readable is the
> duty of the font designer. Of course most good fonts will have the Control
> Pictures with diagonal letters. The ISO 10646-1 standard shows them
> all nicely diagonally. It is a good idea for font designers to have
> BOTH the Unicode 2.0 and the ISO 10646 standard on their desk, to see a few
> glyph variations as the two standards were printed using different fonts.
>

I heartily concur with this. IMHO, most of ISO 10646-1's glyphs are a lot
better than the Unicode Standard's.

--
Kevin Bracey, Senior Software Engineer
Acorn Computers Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 725228
Acorn House, 645 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1223 725328
Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.acorn.co.uk/

2-Oct-98 15:07:41-GMT,2466;000000000001
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Message-Id:
From: Karlsson Kent - keka
To: "'Paul Keinanen'" , "'Rick McGowan'" ,
"'Frank da Cruz'" ,
"'Markus Kuhn'"
,
"'Ken Whistler'"
Cc: "'Asmus Freytag'" ,
"'Kevin Bracey'"
,
"'John Cowan'"
Subject: RE: Terminal Graphics Proposal
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:03:15 +0200
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I'm ***not*** REALLY interested in the control code display-instead-of-do
characters, since I find them to be a thing of the past* (no flames, please,
I alredy know that some of you disagree). And I know TUS says one can use
ANY (in some way appropriate) glyps for them.

It still disturbs me that thay have no compatibility decompositions.
(Compare the decompositons for some characters.) The glyphs for
these (nonce, imho) symbol characters are still fairly fixed to actually be
a short (2-3) sequence of letters/digits. I think it would be reasonable to
have compatibility decompositions for these characters too. This would
affect collation also: they would be sorted according to the constituent
letters (which is what I, at least, would expect).

I probably should not say this, but... If you are abolutely hardbent on
having symbols for control codes, there should be some for the Unicode
control codes too (like paragraph separator, left-to-right-mark, etc.) They
need not be constructed from letters...

R.
/kent k

*(though the newly suggested hexadecimal-digit-pair display ones might
continue to be useful; though hexadecimal digit quadruples would fill an
entier plane and more! ;-)

2-Oct-98 16:42:26-GMT,2281;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:41:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank da Cruz
Message-Id: <199810021641.MAA23664@watsun.cc.columbia.edu>
To: unicode@unicode.org
Subject: Re: Terminal Graphics Proposal
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 2 Oct 1998 01:51:01 -0700 (PDT)

Ar Fri, 2 Oct 1998 01:51:01 -0700 (PDT) scr�obh Michael Everson:
> ... I hope lots of hardcopy examples will be forwarded to WG2 so that we
> who are not so expert in the field can evaluate it appropriately.
>
I'll be happy to provide copies of the character set table from all the
relevant manuals. How do I forward them to WG2?

> PS. Yes, I would make TTFs for them if necessary.
>
What's a TTF? You mean Web-viewable glyph tables like on your website?

Thanks!

- Frank

P.S. By the way, I realize some people find this focus on arcane,
"obsolete", ""legacy"" technology amusing, but it might have certain
unanticipated benefits. For historic or scholarly purposes, the UTC has an
interest in encoding scripts that are no longer in active use; one might
view these glyphs in the same way. I am always amazed by the vigor with
which the history of computing is discarded and wiped out on a continuing
basis. Computing is quite likely to dominate human life from now on; some
day everyone will look around and wonder how it all happened, and nobody
will know. At least now (I hope) we'll be able to publish works --
electronic or otherwise -- in a Unicode font, illustrating how people used
computers in ancient times (the 1970s and 80s), for the continued
amusement of generations to come.

P.P.S. Those interested in preserving the signs and symbols of bygone eras
of computing might also want to take a look at Fred Hoyle's book, The Black
Cloud, circa 1954, which I read a long time ago but don't have any more. As
I recall, it included fragments of computer programs written in the strange
punch-card symbols of the time -- lozenges, etc -- which I dimly recall from
my youthful experiences with IBM EAM equipment. Does anyone have a copy
handy? I wonder if it can be printed in Unicode; perhaps here is fodder for
another fun proposal...

2-Oct-98 17:29:14-GMT,2329;000000000001
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From: kenw@sybase.com (Kenneth Whistler)
Message-Id: <9810021725.AA16847@birdie.sybase.com>
To: keka@im.se
Subject: RE: Terminal Graphics Proposal
Cc: keinanen@sci.fi, rmcgowan@apple.com, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu,
Markus.Kuhn@cl.cam.ac.uk, kenw@sybase.com, asmusf@ix.netcom.com,
kbracey@acorn.com, cowan@locke.ccil.org
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII

Kent said:

> I'm ***not*** REALLY interested in the control code display-instead-of-do
> characters, since I find them to be a thing of the past* (no flames, please,
> I alredy know that some of you disagree). And I know TUS says one can use
> ANY (in some way appropriate) glyps for them.
>
> It still disturbs me that thay have no compatibility decompositions.
> (Compare the decompositons for some characters.)

I disagree completely on this. Proposing compatibility decompositions
for glyphs which have arbitrary content (such as these) confuses
apples and oranges. These 32 glyphs for control codes could contain
3-letter acronyms, or 2-letter acronyms, or could be substituted out
for something completely different, such as the ISO 2047 set. Compatibility
decompositions in that context would be completely misleading.

> The glyphs for
> these (nonce, imho) symbol characters are still fairly fixed to actually be
> a short (2-3) sequence of letters/digits. I think it would be reasonable to
> have compatibility decompositions for these characters too. This would
> affect collation also: they would be sorted according to the constituent
> letters (which is what I, at least, would expect).

Again, I disagree. These should *not* sort as "NUL", "SOH", etc.

--Ken

2-Oct-98 19:42:24-GMT,854;000000000001
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:30:46 -0600 (MDT)
From: Jon Babcock
To: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu
Subject: The Black Hole

_The Black Hole_ by Fred Hoyle(ISBN: 0899683444) is available on
www.amazon.com for $26.96 plus shipping.

Just noticed your note in a unicode ML msg and thought you might be
interested. (I've no connection with Amazon, btw.)

Jon

--
Jon Babcock

2-Oct-98 20:25:29-GMT,1979;000000000011
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From: Michael Everson

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